NY Times: P.S. 8 to Receive an “F”

By on September 11, 2008 11:06 pm in Brooklyn Heights, Government, Kids

Schools Chancellor Joel Klein and Mayor Bloomberg will be announcing letter grades for NYC Public Schools next week according to the New York Times.  The marks are based on a formula that takes into account individual students year to year progress, the overall number of students meeting state achievement standards and how it measures up it to other schools serving similar areas.  The paper claims P.S. 8, a school that has been praised for its great progress and quality, will receive an F.  The school recently added trailer annexes in its schoolyard to address overcrowding.

Update: Principal Seth Phillips will hold a meeting with parents at the school on Monday (9/15) at 8 AM according to the Brooklyn Paper. NOTE: According to a P.S. 8 source the meeting is at 8 AM, not PM as reported in the B’Paper.

Update 2: The Times follows up on the F grade.

Update 3: WABC-TV report.

Update 4: 2003 NYT article on how P.S. 8 was set up to succeed.

New York Times: Low Grade…: When the first round of report cards was unveiled last fall, there were some counterintuitive results and many complaints, but now, P.S. 8 could be the most highly regarded and popular school to receive an F.

Last school year, 67 percent of its students passed standardized tests in English and 83 percent in math, and many who know the school said such a grade would be misleading and preposterous.

“It’s a real indictment of the grading system if it takes a school that is improving rapidly and is already doing pretty well and brands it with an F,” said City Councilman David Yassky, whose district includes P.S. 8.

“It used to be that every summer I’d have parents tell me they’re moving out because there was no decent elementary school for their kids to go to,” Mr. Yassky said. “Now they’re staying in Brooklyn Heights at least through the fifth grade. The resurgence of P.S. 8 has kept a lot of young families in Brooklyn Heights, and it’s been just a tremendous boon for the neighborhood.”

Seth Phillips, who has been principal of P.S. 8 since 2003 and participated in a prestigious fellowship program last school year for outstanding principals at Columbia University’s Teachers College, declined to comment. Principals were notified of their expected grades but were ordered not to discuss them until they are announced, which is expected next week.

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  • Parent

    To the P.S. Parent-Your outrage reads like a personal vendetta. Your stats are not accurate-no such thing as a low 4. Teachers in the school do not even have all data yet. Do You? P.S 8 is not just an “okay” school. I know I’ve gone to NYC public schools my entire life. This school exceeds NYC, state and countrywide averages by a longshot. Some of us don’t buy into Joe Klein’s and the mayor’s BS formua that is used to intimidate school staff and bust unions. Get real! Only in NYC can a school with these stats get an F. The DOE is wrong . My friends in othe rstates just wish their child’s school had stats like these and their tests are really dumbed down.

  • PS 8 Parent

    It is personal my son had a 4 and now has a 3. How will he compete against other students for middle school? There is a range for 4’s. There is such a thing. And yes , we got the scores for our students at the end of the year. They are even posted on line. You must not have a child in Public school or in the testing grades. I want help for the school. I’m not going to be in denial.

  • bj

    It’s all a numbers game. The tested group — older students from higher-needs backgrounds — was compared to a “peer group” of wealthier schools because the influx of relatively affluent younger students pushed the school into Category 1 — low-needs. In 2 years the low-need kids will be taking the tests, the scores will improve, and the city will pat itself on the back for the “turnaround.” See Brooklyn Eagle.
    http://www.brooklyneagle.com/categories/category.php?category_id=27&id=23150

  • onward and forward

    Lets act like rational adults, put the denial behind us, and work to make changes at the school. We cannot continue to have one of the worst performing schools in the city in our neighborhood. On Monday we will see how the nearby schools scored. My bet is that they all passed, some probably got A’s and B’s. Ours got an F. Our children deserve better. they need to be taught better. Seth has to go. Unfortunately for our children he misjudged their educational needs and now our school is famous for being “the F school in Brooklyn Heights”. Thank you NY Times. Now we have to rise above our pride and egos and take concrete steps to change things at PS8 for the better, this time, for real.

  • PS 8 Parent

    Read today’s Times. The so called “high Needs” children did improve as they have in the past few years. It was the other students that are also in the testing grades that scores dropped. But you are right it is all numbers. Hopefully it will improve.

  • No One Of Consequence (Future PS8 Parent)

    Thanks for the link to the article, bj.

    Short of having the actual grades to compare, this confirms my postulates and begins to answer the question of the identity of the comparable/peer schools.

    This grading system really makes no sense.
    PS 35 gets an F while Manhattan Bridges gets an A?
    There’s no hope for PS35, how can they possible improve on a 98 in math? (ok, I’m not that bad at math, they could get a 99 or 100, but c’mon!)

  • spoiky

    As an outsider, I am not a PS8 parent but hope to send my kids there, I am watching this unfold with interest. If anything I think that Mr. Phillips right wrong or indifferent stuck to his vision, but did not manage his statistics well and is now paying the price for it with an F. What gets measured, (should) get attention by the faculty and staff. It’s a sure bet the other principals in the city are managing their statistics like pitbulls (likely to the detriment of actual life learning: i.e. teach for the test + shipping out low achievers). The result is moderate gains at other schools are inflated, and likewise I’m sure moderate drops at PS 8 are deflated to F’s.

    If it is true that teachers there are not getting professional development, it’s a serious indication that PS8 is not on the right track. (I have many friends and family working in the DOE system and they get lots of PD opportunities with full support of their superiors)

    Honestly, I could care less if I send my kids to an A or an F school, as long as it is a good match to their learning style. As a parent I need to be an active advocate for my kid, and if they are not personally being challenged its my cue to move them somewhere else. I will not argue with any parent that feels their kid is getting everything they need at PS8, but I would suggest that it could always be better. We have a saying at my work, “Pleased, but never satisfied”.

    At the end of the day not only are the kids on a learning curve, but so are the faculty at PS8. Firing the principal or radically shaking up the staff will only bring in a fresh group, at the bottom of their learning curve with the only serious objective of managing the statistics at all costs, lest they are on next years chopping block. Don’t scrap the car if all it needs is a front end alignment.

  • lifer

    All I am going to comment on is this – I am a teacher at PS 8 and we get PLENTY of professional development. I don’t even see where that rumor is coming from. All teachers have PD once a month with a staff developer from TC. Teachers also attend regular TC workshops at Columbia University. Several teachers are participants in TC’s leadership or specialty groups. On top of that, Everyday Math training is offered and other math workshops. Science and Art workshops are offered as well. Many of the teachers have attended weeklong training at the University of Connecticut to become more knowledgeable about project-based learning. Breakthrough to Literacy has also provided training and PD. I know for a fact that I can ask to receive more training in any subject matter and my wish will be granted. PS 8 is all about educating teachers.

    Say whatever you want in retaliation but you can’t argue the fact that we get PD because we do.

  • lifer

    Hey Everyone, Lifer here, that last post was by my friend who was on my computer. She is a teacher at PS 8 not me. My computer automatically sets all posts by me. However, I stand by her, Seth , and the work being done at the school.

  • luvtheheights

    I have been a PS8 parent since 2004 and now have 2 children enrolled in the school. I have chaired PTA committees, run fundraisers and attended field trips, school performances, class parties, volunteered at lunch etc. My children are incredibly well educated in a very well-rounded way. My daughter scored 4’s on her tests last year, participated in an art exhibit at the Guggenheim and can tell you more about wind and solar energy than anyone I know. My children are also very well-adjusted socially. The summer after kindergarten, my daughter attended camp at a neighborhood private school. After the first day she asked me where are all of the kids with dark skin? This was weird for her – to be in an all-white environment. She is more comfortable in a diverse place and that is an education that must be learned during these precious young years. You can’t learn this later in life. I heard Carmen Farina describe it once as a “subway education”. You need to learn how to coexist with the people you see on the subway – not just the elite who can afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on their children’s education. The school is not perfect, but the system is much less perfect than the school. I judge this from what I know first hand! So to all of you who think that Seth Phillips needs to go, you are as ignorant as the DOE! The stars aligned when Seth came to PS8. His openness, determination and very good judgment have created an incredible learning environment. He is to be supported and commended for his work.

  • anon

    Thank you!

  • PSf

    Three points:

    1. The “growth model” is mathematically flawed and begs the question whether statisticians or mathematicians were consulted in the formulation of it. There are limits to how much one can improve given a 100% test scale. It is not linear and there are diminishing returns. In fact, improvement approaches the asymptotic limit of 100% as students do better. Therefore, improvement must be normalized for the remaining room left for improvement. For example, if School A passed 50% last year and 60% this year, the improvement should be normalized (divided by) the remaining 50% left for improvement: (60-50)/(100-50) = 10/50 = 20% improvement. Similarly, if School B goes from 80% last year to 84% passing this year then improvement = (84-80)/(100-80) = 4/20 = 20% improvement. Once normalized, improvement of both schools are similar in a relative sense. There are other considerations like negative improvement and the heavy weighting that further amplify this flaw …

    2. According to the NY Times article on Sept. 13, The “growth model” law professor Mr. Liebman professes, ““The point is, compared to any other school in the city, this school is off the charts on the low end … We’re trying to move away from a school that gets by on its reputation.” It’s odd that a bureaucrat would so blatantly assail a school, it’s staff and it’s parents without the usual neutral political stance something on the lines of “We’re as concerned as the parents and the staff about this grade so we’re going to take a closer look at both the schools performance and the growth model grading system. Until we’re satisfied with our investigation, we’re not going to comment further other than to say that we are committed to all schools in NYC being the best they possibly can be. P.S. 8, we’re there to help.” So I wonder if Mr. Liebman is insecure with his model or is the leaked F a pretext for a shake-up of the administrators at P.S. 8?

    3. Invest in Schools, Not War. If NYC sent a fraction of the money it sent to Washington for the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan to its schools, we’d have a middle school and parents financially capable wouldn’t pull their kids in higher grades and enroll them in private schools. When Mayor Bloomberg visited us in 2006, I approached him in the stairwell and asked “For our kids, can you do more to help end the Iraq War?” Intrigued, he engaged and responded, “What can I do, I’m just a mayor.” His handlers immediately pulled him from me. So I sent him a proposal called PeaceNYC requesting the creation of a city-level Peace Commissioner with one of the tangible effects being more funding for education. Your Community Affairs Commissioner, Nazli Parvizi, passed on it. Mayor Bloomberg, I’d be happy to sit down with you anytime to discuss how this would benefit NYC in so many ways especially education. To read more: http://www.livablestreets.com/projects/peacenyc/project-home

  • esplanader

    obviously this principal has a charismatic pull on the white parents of PS F, sorry PS 8. The Chancellor has to sever this person’s pull on the parents, because it is obviously not serving the students well. Whatever Kool Ade this guy Seth is dishing out to the parents, it is not working for the kids. He has to go. Bring back his former assistant principal, now she’s an educator! This white guy, he’s a shlub! Let him write a big treatise on educational philosophy for Teachers College and get him out of our hair!

  • esplanader

    Dear Brooklyn Heights blogger: It is agaisnt the law to censor posts that do not contain profanity or indecent language.
    You may not censor posts because they are critical of the BHA or of PS 8 or are even written by a Republican. You do not have that right.
    Thank you.

  • brooklynite

    I am a teacher and live in the Brooklyn Heights community. I must say I am in awe of your passion, as well as your ignorance (the latter is meant for 89′ and esplanader).
    To 89′: If you are so disgusted with this neighborhood, school, and its members, why don’t you go back to France???? Is it because of the wealth of opportunity in this country?
    In all seriousness, you sound like a person with a lot of mis-directed anger and perhaps mania.
    To esplanader: I feel bad for your children – you are doing them a grave dis-service by teaching them that all that matters is test taking (believe me, they are aware of your mindset)…You are projecting rigid narrow-minded thinking onto them – that will do nothing to help them be well-rounded, compassionate, productive members of society.
    Isn’t that all you can hope for your children??
    After all, success is not measured by one’s career (i.e. if you are a doctor, lawyer, teacher, or plumber), and wealth is not measured by money.
    The bottom line to all parents: Take responsibility (or at least share it) for your child’s education!!! It is not the sole responsibility of the school, the teachers, or the principal.
    When I was not doing well in high school math, my parents hired a tutor (You all have the money, what are you doing to aid you child’s education??) Why is it all up to the school??? Share the responsibility! If a school is not a good match for your child, then move them to another school – there are other options. But please, do not blame one man (Mr. Phillips).

  • jazz

    espy – your grasp of what is legal and illegal is hilarious. i also doubt that you are really a PS8 parent, but I am convinced that you are a troll.

  • epc

    Dear esplanader: If you think the 1st amendment applies to a private blog, you are mistaken. BHB and any private blogger is free to publish, censor, unpublish any content on the sites he runs. The 1st amendment does not apply to a private blog, furthermore the DMCA provides several safe harbor provisions for private sites like this.

  • nabeguy

    And here I was, thinking that this kind of thing only went on in Alaskan libraries.

  • T.K. Small

    Last week’s discussion about PS 8 was interesting even though I do not have kids. In the New York Times today there is another article on this topic which explains the situation a little bit better. I hope that this does not enrage people yet again.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/nyregion/17grades.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion&oref=slogin

  • Cranberry Beret

    Lest you think that criticism of the ranking system is reserved to upset parents from so-called F schools, the last quote in the article is instructive – from the principal of an A school:

    ‘Ellen Foote, the principal of Intermediate School 289, a respected school in Lower Manhattan that got a D last year, said she was unmoved by its A this year.

    “A school doesn’t move from a D to an A in one year unless there is a flaw in the measurement or the standardized test itself” she said. “We have not done anything differently, certainly not in response to the progress report.

    ”I think it’s just so disrespectful of the profession, to think that I would respond to a single letter by beefing up my test prep,” she said.’

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