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A tipster sent us this unsolicited letter they received today, from Two Trees Management, asking for support for their Dock Street Dumbo plan. Yelling “IT’S NOW OR NEVER FOR A NEW MIDDLE SCHOOL IN DUMBO AND OUR NEIGHBORHOOD’S FIRST EVER AFFORDABLE HOUSING!”, they ask the recipient to contact David Yassky immediately, and attend a hearing hosted by the NYC Council Subcommittee on Zoning & Franchises on Thursday, May 14th at 11am.
Sound intriguing? Would you like to subscribe to their newsletter? Contact Nora Mattingly at 718-222-2500 or at nmattingly@twotrees-dumbo.com.
Anyone else out there receive this mailing?
We got that and we got the mass mailing from the BHA telling us to write in opposition to the Yassky puppet and others….
What’s your point?
The point is the rally the large majority against this project to protest strongly as the zoning approval goes into its final round.
Jeb Walentas is right in the above letter, it is now of never. If you’ve spoken out against the Dock St. DUMBO project before, this will be your last chance to stop the project. If you’ve never spoken out, speak now or forever regret that decision.
A reminder to all that the City Council is Two Tree’s last hurdle. It’s critical that if you oppose this project, and it’s clear from previous hearings and the tens of thosands of petition signatures against it that the majority of Brooklynites are opposed to Dock St. DUMBO, that you contact your City councilperson and tell them to oppose it.
Use the email address for Councilman David Yassky on the above letter from Jeb Walentas to tell Yassky to keep up his pressure on fellow concilmembers to vote NO on Dock St. DUMBO.
Big Man in the House!
“Now or never for a middle school” ???
Only as it applies to this one location.
Give me a friggin’ break!
I think the BHA’s letter read “LAST CHANCE.”
Let’s play fair. Write the councilman and speaker and let them know how you feel. I have and will.
And while you’re at it, make sure you ask the public officials to get the school in writing. I condition my support on getting it in writing.
I got both the Two Trees letter and the emails from the BHA. Luckily, I’m an adult able to read material from two sides of an argument. Both sides are encouraging me to write to Yassky and others expressing my opinion. Done and done.
I think the difference between the two sides is that from the BHA it really is the last chance to stop the project while from Two Trees it is just the last chance to get a middle school at this location. To say that it is the last chance *period* for a middle school in DUMBO is a lie.
Carlo, I know you have previously expressed that if they don’t include the middle school that you will then come out against it (I’m paraphrasing), but at those times I took it from you to mean post-construction. This is the first (that I’ve noticed) where you are conditioning on having it in writing, presumably pre-approval.
The thing is, I don’t think it’s going to happen; i.e. getting it in writing before the approval, which leaves the door wide open for all the lures to be retracted in the final plans.
If Two Trees were serious, they would have presented a pre-prepared contract instead of a PR campaign. In so doing, they could have saved lots of lobbying dollars and won over many more undecideds in the community (aka nabe) long ago. The cost of lobbying and any advertising, etc is easily offset by what they stand to gain in getting the re-zoning, and even more so if/when they pull the middle school and affordable housing.
So, is it fair to say that your current position is that you do not support the project, as there is nothing in writing? This would be a huge win for the BHB anti-DSD contingency. :) Welcome to the dark side.
No One,
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear but I have always insisted that the school be put in writing pre-approval.
As i understand it, the politicians need to prove to their constituents that they have protected the people. Either Quinn or Yassky will and should get the school in writing. They need to get something out of this negotiation.
I blame Yassky for this game of political football. He’s playing the issue for publicity.
Thanks for the clarification. While I am still against the project, I also agree with you that if they are going to approve it, they need to put pen to paper. Only a real fool would give carte blanche, which Yassky or other, they seem frighteningly too willing to do.
Again, since it doesn’t exist (to my knowledge) don’t expect it to come from Two Trees.
It’s standard practice haggling… if you don’t ask for it, you’re not going to get it.
Carlo’s late game assertion that Yassky should be taking care of Two Tree’s committments is specious at best.
It’s clear from the two major scandals that have come out of this process (the collustion and corruption of the SCA and Two Trees) as well as the pay offs to citycouncil people involved in the ULURP process that Two Trees has actively been working to subvert Councilman Yassky and the community’s efforts. And now Carlo and DuhVoyager expect Yassky to fall into line after this intentional sabatage and dirty dealings?
The pro-Dock Street micro-minority is great at Doublepeak and the shell game. This assertion that Yassky should be helping those who actively work against him and the community is just the latest example. I have to give Two Trees credit, though. Their Rovian tactics have got them this far, and their micro-supporters like the comment above are going along for the ride.
Add my email to Yassky to the pile of nay-sayers’.
who says micro-minority? I’m asking seriously. Minority of NYers are against this? Of Brooklyn-ites? Of Dumbo-ites?
What is the breakdown of supports/opponents? Where did you get this?
ABC:
To claify: The micro- minority of New Yorkers, Brooklynites, DUMBO-its are for Dock St/DUMBO. The vast majority are against the project.
It’s clear from all rational indicators:
– The percentage for against/for at all the hearings.
– The number of signatures on petititons against/for.
– The number of neighborhood associations against/for.
These are measurable, empiracle indicators.
The other side has Jeb’s checkbook, an effective rent-a-lobbyist hitting the citycouncil, CB and SCA hard with unwritten promises about a school and afforable housing, and less than a handful of online commentators, such as the ones on this talkback, pimping the pro-Dock Street position.
The unelected, appointed, unrepresentative, and beholden CB voted for the project because Councilwoman James supportes it and, frankly, they are a rubber stamp since many rely on her for their positions and reappointments. It’s been noted before that during the Borough Hall hearings, a hearty handshake, toothy smiles and “It’s a great day” was exchanged between Papa Walentas and Rep. Tish James. I saw and heard this personally. I’ll leave it to individual readers to decide for themselves what that’s all about and what conversations had previously transpired between James and Walentas.
The two scandals (SCA collusion and illegal contributions to politicians) that have emerged from this this months-long exercise has shown is the power of $$$ in our politicial process that this project/rezoning petition can get as far as it has against the will of the people.
I think that Carlo and Dav are paid shills. They keep hanging themselves over and over with each posting they astro-turf on several boards. They contribute nothing else to any other conversation on any other boards besides the 2trees rhetoric. At this point I skip what they have to say, it always resonates BS. Paid shills are all over the net to lobby for corporations, tobacco industry, pharma industry, politicans, now greedy slimeball developers. Look up Rendon and Novogates if you think I’m lying.
Not trolling, just trying to understand both sides.
Since the fall I’ve seen people collecting signatures and handing out flyers, but I’ve stayed out of the fray because it seems to me for the most part these types of conflicts are usually about owners trying to ensure the highest possible value of their real estate holdings. I think the people who fall into this category realize most people won’t care much if that is their reason, especially in areas like DUMBO that are out of reach for many, so they revert to the “preservation argument”.
So my question is what do you all think is the motivation behind the opposition? Is it really about public views or more so about views from million dollar apartments? I fully agree with those who’ve said don’t count on any of the affordable housing or even the school, because every new construction job I’ve seen that has promised affordable housing seems to retract fully or partially any affordable housing they promised by citing financial issues.
That’s kind of what I figured Publius. I know a lot of supporters and they just aren’t out there screaming on the steps of city hall because that’s not what supporters really do. I get the opponents are the ones with the passion. I get that. But I know a lot of local people think think, “not perfect, but, yeah, okay.” It’s not really the kind of thing you for an association FOR or sign petitions FOR. I mean, by that logic, the community must be against the Brooklyn Bridge Park too, right?
Besides post here that you’re for the project and you get called a paid shill. Sorry, but who needs that?
I don’t agree with your logic.
I wish someone would pay me. All I do is pay more and get less in this city. I remember going to Albany in the 70′s as a high school student to argue against school budget cuts with my local state representative. And the budgets have continued to shrink relentlessly since that time. A citizen should be able to state an opinion without being viciously attacked. I’m sorry the opponents of this project have such weak arguments that these tactics are their only recourse against reason.
that’s cool Publius.
I don’t agree with your logic that pro-dock people are a micro-minority bcs they haven’t formed a support group or signed petitions.
I don’t get your logic that all the pro-dock people are paid peons either.
I get both sides of this argument.
ROTFLMAO.
More doublespeak from the micro-minority.
Certainly you exclude yourself from people who put out vicious attacks when at the Borough Hall hearing you said that everyone who’s against the project can’t possibly be a Brooklynite. (Which suprised/mildly amused me as a 4th generation Brooklynite)
hyp⋅o⋅crite –noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
You’re sanctimonious and opportunitic. You’ve said you don’t care at all about the Dock St./DUMBO development if you won’t get a school. Show’s how much you care about your borough and it history and national treasures. Who’s not a real Brooklynite? Look in the mirror DuhVoyager.
Folks, this is your last chance to express your opinion to your representatives. Contact Yassky and let him know (use the email address above on Jeb’s scanned letter).
I’m confident that the overwhelming number of people who do so will oppose this project since the overwhelming number of Brooklynites oppose this project.
Have a great weekend!
Again, never said any such thing. If your whole argument is based on lies why should we listen to you? I would like to know who you are and more importantly who is paying you since you sign off every weekend and don’t show up again till monday.
I am now convinced that Pub is a hired gun and is engaging in a misinformation campaign while hiding behind the internet persona.
Anyway I’m tired of him/her attributing statements to me that I would never make. So I am going to publish the statement I made at the BP’s hearing word for word in full here and on the Dumbo Blog.
Mr. Borough President and assembled citizens of Brooklyn,
I am a life long Brooklynite, victim of the NYC public school system and father of 2 now entering that same system. Some of you may know me as the Emily Warren Roebling Middle School of the Environment guy.
.
When this great bridge was being built Brooklyn was promised that we would be an equal partner in this creation of a Greater New York City. We are still waiting for that promise to be fulfilled.
With regard to this issue: parents in almost any neighborhood in Manhattan and elsewhere in the city have any number of good public middle school choices for their children to the point that they can choose based on criteria such as whether the lockers are nice enough. Lockers! Here in Brooklyn if we have lockers they are WWII vintage, or more likely, they have been ripped out to make another room .
Over the past decade or more the DOE has been building neighborhood schools all over the city using this same public/private partnership but not here in downtown Brooklyn. 2 trees comes along with this modest development respectful of this great bridge which will provide jobs and affordable housing, the school long needed and suddenly councilman Yassky and the BHA are casting around for any kind of alternative they can think of to putting this middle school in DUMBO.
They say:”put the school in the old jail on Atlantic avenue” Put the school in the jail, think about that.
They say: squeeze 3 more grades of big kids into the already overcrowded and outdated PS 8 which needs an annex built just to meet it’s current mission. An idea which shows just how little they care about the quality of the education these middle school aged children, and all the public school children here will be getting.
They say spend the xtra $50 million (the value of this gift or bribe however you want to look at it) to build a new school anywhere else but Dock Street; a location where generations of kids would be able to share the views of this magnificent bridge built by dreamers with those who can actually afford to live here.
I would ask: where was Councilman Yassky and the BHA when the mega project Atlantic Yards was being planned. There are no schools in that nightmarish collection of the over sized and the over sold.
Where was councilman Yassky and the BHA when the big Hotel and condo development called Brooklyn Bridge Park was being planned? There are no schools in those over sized, out of place towers either.
And you can bet that if this project is defeated all these people trying so hard to find an alternative to this wonderful school idea will evaporate like last weeks snow on a summer day.
And you can bet that if they truly understood the need they would have seen this done years ago, and seen it done right.
Nobody here knows if this project is actually going to be built in the current economic meltdown but it represents a real chance we now have, at this moment, in these downtown neighborhoods for a brand new school.
These communities are hungry for public middle schools to nurture and this is where they might create one of the great public schools for the Borough of Brooklyn and for the city of New York.
This is too good an idea to pass up for narrow personal reasons however well they have been packaged for the public.
So I say it is about time, it is long past about time that Brooklyn got it’s fair share of the kinds of resources available to children and parents living elsewhere in this great city.
I say: let’s seize this opportunity, Let’s build this school together so the children of Brooklyn can have a quality education in this inspirational setting.
Thank you very much for your time.
DuhVoyager:
Nice editing job. Either that or nice angry ad lib job at the Borough Hall hearing.
I remember turning to the person next to me when you stated your resentment to Manhattanites moving to Bklyn, which you then topped off by stating anyone againt the project is not a real Brooklynite. At that point my jaw hit the floor and I shared a chuckle with the person next to me. At that point I filed your comments under the “wackadoodle” heading. Soon after that you started your comments on this board and other. Odd that after months of me calling you out on your Borough Hall masterpiece you only now try to deny it.
If a transcript exists, I’ll find it and post it hear so your neighbors not at the hearing can see what you think of them.
Wow! This is what makes me want to live in the middle of nowhere so I don’t have to deal with douche nozzles. None of you answered me, but I’m going to have to side with davoyager after doing some research. Views of a bridge, no matter what bridge, are meaningless if viewed thru the eyes of the uneducated.
And yes, I do live in BH.
any chance we can get rid of those buildings that block the bridge view from the promenade side? down along furman near the ferry terminal. they look old and empty. and not old in a historically significant way. will they be demo’d for the park?
Pub Bully, you can drop your jaw all you want. What I posted here is word for word what I said. You must have me mixed up with all the other supporters of this project.
Unsure, there are many people in Dumbo who’s views from their windows will be altered and they are fighting by any means necessary to maintain their property values and have basicly drummed up the opposition to a fevor pitch.
And ABC I agree those horrable old buildings at the north end of the promenade should be torn down but in their infinite lack of wisdom the Brooklyn Bridge Park planners want to build an even bigger set of buildings, hotel etc in that location.
somehow my puter picked up someone elses identity for the previous post. apologies to nabe car owner, I don’t know how that happened.
ABC: do you mean the Squibb/Watchtower buildings or the National City Stores (the buildings on Furman in the park footprint). My understanding is that the City Stores buildings are to be demolished as part of the Brooklyn Bridge Park plans
For anyone pro/against Dock Street: I’m still looking for current dimensions of the proposed Dock Street site. I’ve found a few vague references to the proposed and current CPC approved heights but nothing for the lower chunk of the complex. Provided these I can update the Google Earth model I posted a couple of days ago.
well, I know there’s little hope of losing the squibb/watchtower buildings. But yeah, the National City Stores, I guess. If they were gone, the view would be much improved.
There’s a former police station on Poplar or Middagh street, right near PS 8. It’s large and looks like it could serve as a middle school. It hasn’t been used in years. It’s already owned by the city. Why doesn’t the city use property it owns and turn it into a middle school?
publius is from the old soviet-era “my way or the gulag” rule book. His bullying approach turns me off. who died and made him party-boss of brooklyn heights and its dumbo colonies?
He is less than truthful and more than bombastic.
Now that is what I would call Propaganda!
DaVoyager-
“somehow my puter picked up someone elses identity for the previous post. apologies to nabe car owner, I don’t know how that happened.”
I will explain that to you.
See, among other things I have worked in IT.
You want to know how that happened?
It happened because web-browsers have a benefit of ‘remembering’ field entries.
So, the only way that could have happened is if someone (you) posted that name in that form. It could not happen any other way.
But, if you want to maintain separate identities, you can either clear the form entries under the options, clear your cache, or just be careful when you post and make sure you choose the right identity you want.
BklynLifer, that would have been such a great solution, but the city sold that property at auction some time ago. It’s been thru several plans (condos, commercial), but it is now on track to be rentals and a modern addition above the garage was just approved.
No2, I was also a programmer for many years and am aware of the browsers “memory”, however since I’ve never used that identity clearly something else happened that both you and I don’t understand. The browser also indicated an email address I’ve never seen before which I’m assuming belonged to the name. It really is odd. I thought maybe my wife had something to do with it but she says no. I was using her browser at that time and not my own but I have no reason to doubt her word.
i think the revised project is really very good. i don’t think it will have any negative impact on the majestic brooklyn bridge at all. the bridge destruction rhetoric borders on hysteria and is merely knee-jerk anti-development sentiment.
The same people who believe a 14-story condo in dumbo will somehow diminish the brooklyn bridge would probably have been agaisnt the construction of the bridge in the first place had they been around then. they are people with only rear-view vision.
DaVoyager, it is impossible for such a thing to happen unless it is from your browser. So either it was you, your wife, or perhaps someone using your computer.
All I can say, is since this is basically mathematics and science, look at Occam’s razor, which states “entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem” translated as “entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity”, in other words, the simplest explanation is usually the answer.
So either it was your computer (simple answer), or a mystical, improbable occurrence.
cre-
14 story building? Really now.
I agree No2, somebody put that name there. But as I said it wasn’t the browser I use (firefox), it was my wife’s AOL and while I believe her that she never posts on the blogs, there are people over here all the time. The place is overrun with kids and their parents. But Pub bully will use any excuse to slam anybody who disagrees with him. Reminds me of Ann Coulter.
Fair enough, but I don’t let people use my computer for precisely that reason.
Wow, I’m glad I stayed out of this fray. Bullies, soviets, douche nozzles. Anyone familiar with this blog knows my position on this project and I’m the first to admit that, in my passion, I’ve allowed my better judgement to descend into vituperation. But I find this string particularly disheartening, as the issues, both pro and con, seem to be getting lost in a flurry of point-scoring. Let’s try to get back to the main points. My anti-DSP ones are as follows: (refute at your leisure)
Health: the proposed building and school will be in close proximity to a bridge that handles 126,000 cars per day. Given the huge surge in asthma-related illnesses in the population of NYC children, what are the risk factors of such proximity?
Safety: Unless you are a Dumbo resident, access to the proposed building involves crossing major vehicular thoroughfares (Old Fulton Street, BQE entryway) that are heavily used at precisely the times that children would be going to and from school (rush hours)
3. Environmental: per the OEM, the building will be situated in a flood zone in the event of a Category 2 hurricane
4. Contextual: the building will be at least 100 feet taller than any structure within 2 blocks. While the only views of the bridge that will be directly blocked are those of residents north-east of the bridge (Two Trees suckers…I mean residents for the most part), its close proximity to the bridge will result in a jarring visual disconnect between the Gothic architecture of the bridge and the modern styling of the new structure. As David McCullough stated, would you put a modern high-rise next to the Statue of Liberty?
Health: modern buildings are self contained and climate controlled. The air should be pristine. As for the environs around the school like the Park and the street you should ask the residents why they live there and the parks department why they are building a park. They must think as I do when I go down there that the wind off the river keeps the air quite clean.
Safety: the traffic flows will change to accommodate whatever is built and if the unbelievable happens and the school is built than the traffic thru the neighborhood is going to fundamentally change to make it safe.
Environment? What hurricane? So the building gets damaged with a lot of other buildings . So what? the kids and staff will be up the hill long before any big storm hits. This is just fear mongering.
Contextual This is your only argument and it is a matter of opinion but I would submit that an honest discussion of this project would center on this argument alone.
Folks:
May 15th is the committee hearing at the City Council for the final hurdle in the ULURP process.
We’ve all debated this project’s merits and demerits for many months. Distractors like DaVoyager and Two Trees supporters would like nothing more than people to keep up their shell game while they jump over the final hurdle.
If you haven’t participated in the process before, this is your LAST CHANCE to make your voice heard. And unlike the unelected CB or the CPC, the City Council is somewhat representative.
Take the time to type a quick email to Yassky, Avella, Quinn, Katz (though unless you send a check to the last two like Two Trees, it likey won’t do much good) and tell them to stand strong.
Dock St. DUMBO will be built one day (hopefully lower than the bridge roadway), and at this point only you (through your elected representatives) can make sure the majesty of the Brooklyn Bridge is preserved for this and future generations.
sorry Pub but you’ll have to work a few more days. The hearing is the 21st. xtra billing hours.
da- Publius is a “hired gun” of whom? Those who prefer that the building not be built have what agenda? I think the idea is really, REALLY ill conceived, but I’m just me, and name-calling aside, I hate almost all of the construction that’s been done in the Heights in recent decades (Montague Street, Pierrepont Plaza, the gorgeousness that made Fulton Street Cadman Plaza, etc).
bornhere, there is some extremely valuable real estate with views that will be compromised by this project: condos worth several to many millions of dollars. These people have the means and the will to hire professionals and we have seen some of them at the hearings.
I totally agree about the construction over the last few decades, but I ask where was the school. They built all this crap and hold us hostage at the last.
Our elected officials had so many years to make this right and they didn’t. If you want someone to blame look to the empty promises and scant attention of the Yasskys and the Markowitzs and the Conners.
w/r/t environmental factors, the immediate area around the bridge is very dusty and sooty. This is unlikely to change. I take it the school has no plans for outdoor activities? No playground?
w/r/t traffic: “the traffic flows will change to accommodate whatever is built” reflects a lack of sophistication about the nature of NYC traffic and traffic in and around DUMBO/Fulton Ferry. The assholes who absolutely must get into the traffic line to crawl down the BQE really, really don’t care at all today about tapping pedestrians. And the black car drivers who fly down Front Street won’t have any time to react to a kid meandering into the street.
There’s a big difference between residents who choose to live in DUMBO and the city/state forcing children into an unhealthy situation.
Isn’t there also something to be said about having a school in such close proximity to a freeway on-ramp?
Granted, the BQE often moves at a snail’s pace, but it does make abduction and disappearance a little more convenient.
I’m sure I’ll get slammed for fear-mongering, but these are the things we must consider in this world.
the notion that the new building should be built lower than the BB roadway is very naive and impractical. it reflects poorly on the anti’s judgement. Why build a building lower than an adjacent on-ramp? how could that be financially feasible? it is so stupid, that it can’t be given an ounce of credence. But the antis are in an echo chamber and amen corner only hearing their own voices.
the council will approve this building, i have no doubt. they could modify it if they thought the modifications would help make the locals happier but since the locals want something that is not feasible, i would not blame the council if they approve it as is. the city needs the jobs, the tax revenue and the new school.
da – I actually embrace the compromised-view issue, and if my immediate view were threatened, I’d not be very happy; I don’t think wanting to retain a selling point or a contributing reason for having purchased an especially costly living space is exactly agenda. But I think changing the “viewing context” of something as iconic as the Brooklyn Bridge is a good enough reason not to build. Add to that the essentially remote location and its stunning proximity to abundant traffic (short of NO vehicles, I don’t think there is an acceptable traffic-flow change), it is, to me, a really ill-conceived notion. We’re talking about a population of children. On a more personal note, one of the reasons I didn’t send my child to Friends was its location, and navigating Adams Street is, I think, probably easier than trying to get around the area of the proposed school.
Actually there is no school yard planned as the Brooklyn Bridge Park is going to serve that purpose.
And I do believe the city will employ strong measures to control the traffic near this location to protect the kids. I have argued and will continue to argue for a car free zone around the school at least during school hours. It’s not impossible given this mayor and current movement to go more green. Deliveries and such can occur on off hours. This is something being done in cities all over America. I think NYC has become all too car friendly in recent years and I for one would like to see car and truck activity greatly curtailed in the residential neighborhoods.
Two things I think would go a long way would be an absolute ban on the very big trucks on the streets and residential parking permits to cut down on the cruising for parking that consumes so much of New Yorkers time.
Isn’t one of the things they do to make buildings “green” is give the ability to open windows and let in fresh air rather than relying on mechanical systems?
Sure, the hurricane and flooding won’t (most likely) destroy the building, but what about cleanup and restoration/repair costs?
The pro-side really shows very little long-term thinking, IMO.
cre- Can you explain the jobs beyond construction that this building will create? Once it is completed, what jobs other than building staff (which knowing developers, will be minimal?) will this create?
Also, can you please clarify your statement-
“The same people who believe a 14-story condo in dumbo will somehow diminish the brooklyn bridge would probably have been agaisnt the construction of the bridge in the first place had they been around then. they are people with only rear-view vision.”
Where did you get the 14-story number? Who has stated this?, this would be a major reduction from TT plans.
the more the heights gentry complain and the more they piss off politicians like christine quinn the more assured the approval of the project. the cb was so out off by the heights coalition that they would have approved a building by attila the hun. You guys put people off. not only are your arguments crazy (don’t build new buildings near traffic arteries) but you are also obnoxious.
Cre- You still can’t explain where the 14 story number you posted about come from?
Also you speak for CB2? That’s interesting. Also the argument really isn’t about buildings near traffic arteries it is about a school near a traffic artery, which alone could get the DOE to say no.
You really need to sharpen your arguments before you make wild allegations about people and what others think.
It would be impossible to close down Front St and Water Streets during a school day as they are the two primary East/West entrance/exit points to DUMBO. Furthermore the NYPD garage directly across the street has frequent comings and goings of tow trucks and various vehicles. Will the school politely request the NYPD to cease this activity?
And…banning trucks from the streets of DUMBO? What, and drive every last bit of industry out of DUMBO so that it can be secured for the children?
epc-
You make valid points as to why the DOE may ultimately reject the school proposal and we will be left with just a building if this project goes through. The school argument hasn’t been thought through enough to warrant the support it is getting.
I get the sense that many people commenting about Dock Street, on either side, have never actually visited the site. I walk by it two-three times per day. It is an incredibly bad location for a school. Both due to the traffic and pedestrian access issues, as well as the environmental issues (not only CO and particulate PM2.5 pollution, but the design of the Dock St. high rise all but guarantees trapping all of the crap in the air that blows over from New Jersey).
The site would be far better used as a strictly commercial, 5-7 story space, perhaps with a new performance space for St. Ann’s.
I go by there everyday as well and have to constantly run out of the way on fast moving livery cabs.
“the more the heights gentry complain and the more they piss off politicians like christine quinn the more assured the approval of the project.”
Let’s see… these politicians are supposed to represent us, so by telling them how we feel they are compelled to do the opposite?
Glad to see that the issues at hand are now back on the table. Da, I see your point about the air-quality of modern buildings, as I happen to work in one. Personally, I am not of fan of hermetically-sealed buildings where the inside atmosphere is dependent on the quality of the filtration system, and I’m pretty sure the Legionnaires aren’t either. I love your faith in the air-clearing winds off the river. In case you’ve mistaken Brooklyn for Chicago, I invite you to visit the area on a calm day at low-tide.
As for the hurricane scenario that you are so quick to dismiss, would you care to explain to me why my home-owners insurance was just dropped by Allstate explicitly due to the threat of impending hurricanes? Or why the OEM expends money on hurricane preparedness brochures and mailings? Give me a little bit more credit than to imply that I ever suggested that children would be attending school in the midst of a hurricane. However, given that the area could be under two feet of water, do you know exactly how long my child would be displaced?
Da, I think we both want the same thing for our children, namely a high-quality middle school in the area (although I must point out that, at only 300 seats for a district-wide school, there are no guarantees for local residents). However, for the reasons I’ve stated, I’d like to think that we can do better by our kids and not capitulate to expediency and “gimme” deals negotiated behind closed doors between developers and elected officials looking to build their campaign chests. My own daughter has told me that she would hate to go to school in that area. I’d hate to be in the position as a parent of telling her that it’s the best that we could do.
cre (tin), you want obnoxious? Go sniff the air under the bridge. Oh, and don’t forget your BB gun. The water rats make for great practice shooting at night.
I’m talking about banning the big trucks from all residential streets in NY. They are illegal now but the law is rarely enforced.
And I was thinking specifically of closing Dock St. during school hours, not Water and Front Sts. Livery cabs will just have to drive slower or risk having their ticket pulled.
And I think the air is great in Dumbo what with the constant breeze off the river. The Promenade is toxic with the fumes off the highway and the lovely odor from the occasional garbage barge floating by.
Sometimes in the summer when the air is real bad up here on the hill I will go to Dumbo just to get a breath of fresh air.
Hate to P.S., but I need an explanation on how exactly traffic patterns in that particular area can be amended to make it safe as Davoyager suggests? Unless you can channel the spirit of Bob Moses to undo his legacy, I can’t imagine how there’s a plan in place to ameliorate the traffic flow to the BQE on rush hour mornings. Despite my tone, I’m not kidding, and would love to hear any ideas on how to get our children safely to that location without having to cross 4 lanes of traffic if you’re coming from the north.
Clearly, once drivers see THE CHILDREN, they will all slow down and cease acting like it’s critical that they progress to the next level of Gridlock in the next 30 seconds.
Closing Dock Street itself will not help much. Assuming demographics hold true and for sake of argument some percentage of students will come from Brooklyn Heights, they have only two pedestrian access points to DUMBO: under the BQE at Hicks & Fulton, or across Fulton at Columbia/Everit. The BQE onramp at Hicks & Fulton is not fun to cross at any time of the day, moreso during rush hour. Crossing Fulton at Everit is easier, unless there’s a backup on the BQE in which case the contestants in Gridlock fly down Fulton and barely make the turn onto Furman.
Now, if someone wants to commit to paying for a pedestrian underpass of the BQE (say connecting Hicks to approximately Vine St), or for additional crossing guards on the various crossing points (preferably armed with anti-tank weapons), then, then you might have a chance in getting your kid to/from the proposed school safely.
More likely, though, is that parents will do what they do now at PS 8 and drive their kids to the school. Accepting that there would be some school buses, that’s still a lot of car traffic to dump into DUMBO.
I thought Hicks Street was a dangerous raceway when I lived there, but I’ve been stunned at how people drive in/around DUMBO and have witnessed one car v. pedestrian assault (I don’t see how you can call it an accident) as well as seen the results of two others. Throwing 300 children into this mix is irresponsible.
Oh, and I’m still looking for the precise dimensions of the Dock Street complex. Close to 100 people have downloaded the Google Earth model I threw together, I’d like to make it semi-accurate. Could one of the proponents, supports of Dock Street post a link showing the proposed dimensions? There’s nothing on either the http://www.dockstreetdumbo.com/ or http://savethebrooklynbridge.org/ other than vague references to numbers of stories. Just the dimensions in feet, that’s all I ask. Shouldn’t be a state secret at this point.
I’m sorry Nabeguy but I don’t see the problem. The city is planning to calm the traffic thru dumbo regardless of Dock St. There is serious talk of Furman St. becoming 2 way with the continued populating of the flood plane you so fear.
They can use, what traffic lights to stop the flow of traffic off the highway? Much of that traffic should not be coming thru the neighborhood anyway. They take advantage of the free east river crossings to avoid tolls where they should use the tunnel. I don’t understand why you think the traffic problem is unsolvable.
Oh Gee the rest of the tired catalog of specious arguments. I told you the context argument was your ticket. These other arguments are old and tired.
Since we haven’t seen the 2 foot flood you predict in all the years of European occupation of NY I don’t understand why we should worry about it now. If it happens it happens. We’ll deal with it.
Since the graduating class at PS 8 is less than 100 and many of them will go else where, and since most of the rest of district has neighborhood middle schools as a choice I don’t expect a huge over subscription. in fact I wouldn’t be surprise if we had to scramble to fill all those seats the first few years.
Since we’ve been waiting over 40 years for a middle school expediency is all we have left: message from the middle class. Show us a plan that doesn’t involve a jail, or overcrowding, or wild expenditures during serious economic turmoil, or a neighborhood school in some far off neighborhood, in the next few years and we’ll listen. Otherwise … now is now..
“Since the graduating class at PS 8 is less than 100 and many of them will go else where, and since most of the rest of district has neighborhood middle schools as a choice I don’t expect a huge over subscription.”
Then the original report from the DOE is true… there is no need for a new middle school in this district.
Hurricanes in New York? Just Google it.
Enough about the proposed school already. It’s a distraction from Two Trees and it’s all you got.
Now, log back in as Carlo T. to create the appearance that you’re not the only one arguing in favor.
So 60 to 70 kids a year is “no need” in your mind. Just so we’re clear.
I’m being paid by the spare change left behind in the seat cushions at Jed’s lobbyist’s office. When you get paid north of $180,000 during the past two years to lobby the CB, CPC, and City Council, sometimes all of it can’t fit into one’s pockets and some gold coins fall behind the couch.
I also get some left over loose change that falls behind the seat cushions at the offices of Councilwomen Quinn and Katz. This is from the money Two Trees has paid through its “employees” to subvert political donation laws limits. Both of these stories have been reported extensively in the NYT and the NY Post and have previously been posted here.
DuhVoyager is either:
a) using Rovian tactics intentionally to smear his advesaries with exactly what his side is doing (hey, it worked for GWB for 8 years until everyone finally got wise).
or
b) he’s subconsicously projecting himself and his “side” (you know, the one that’s spreading many hundreds of thousands of dollars around buying political support, onto his advesaries).
The effect is the same.
Folks, this is your last chance to write to key City Councilpeople and tell them to stand strong.
You can also try Quinn and Katz, but as last week’s NY Post article shows, they were each paid over $25,000 by Two Trees in “contributions”.
Here’s the email addresses:
http://council.nyc.gov/d3/html/members/home.shtml
This links you to Christine Quinn’s website.
katz@council.nyc.ny.us
avella@council.nyc.ny.us
yasskydockst@gmail.com
You’re in front of the computer, so take a few moments to stop Dock St. DUMBO as it’s currently configured to diminsh the Brooklyn Brige.
Why don’t the yuppies who moved into Dumbo 15 years ago, fully aware that the area lacked schools, pool their enormous returns on their real estate appreciation to build themselves a school that doesn’t wreck the bridge views?
i sent yassky a notesky, btw, arguing against the project.
Davoyager already outted himself with his bogus Nabe Car owner defense and his fingerpointing to others for what he was called on originally. Duh!
my2, Yassky and Avella are already on our side. Send to Quinn and Katz.
Now Pub bully the hired gun is AstroTurfing multiple web sites with the exact same message.
I remember the slimy lawyer and the other hired consultants at the public hearings at which I spoke to my friends and neighbors. If I’m wrong let him/her come out of the shadows and tell all of us who he is and what his agenda is.
DuhVoyager:
Again you show your hypocrisy. You’ve copied and pasted your messages on multiple websites including this one, dumbonyc and the Brooklyn Paper. By your defination, that makes you an astroturfer.
Keep calling yourself out and diminishing your own credibility.
Ka-Ching!
What do you charge per hour Pub bully esq?
NYC has a housing emergency. Rents are insanely expensive. Walentas has offered to speculatively build a new building WITH A FREE SCHOOL, and the NIMBYS say no?????
NYC desperately needs housing units. Last I checked, 800 people will live in this building, and they’ll be very close to their places of work, saving numerous hours, putting less strain on the transportation fabric, etc. . They’ll also add to the property and income tax receipts, and some of them will be able to drop their kids off downstairs.
This is worth tens of millions annually to the citizens of NYC.
Against this, we have some BS arguments about ‘context’ (as if buildings are more important than peoples’ lives) and the fierce opposition of disgruntled condo-owners. The current use of the site is pretty grim.
This is an economic boon, it should go forward.
Bemused, I’d argue that most of the opposition to this proposal comes from outside of Dumbo, so your claim of nimby-ism doesn’t really hold water. As for the housing emergency you mention (sounds a bit like me and my Chicken Little flood warnings, doesn’t it?) given the recent economic downturn, affordable housing will find it’s level, but if you’d bother to read the facts, this building is not being constructed to house 800 people in need of it. Your idea that some residents will be able to “drop their kids off downstairs” sounds like a blurb from a Two Trees brochure touting the building, so I’m rather suspect of your arguments.
Publius/Da, both of you need to back off from your respective rhetoric and stick to the pros and cons of the proposal. Neither of you is advancing your arguments with off-topic bickering.
I’m all for responsible and respectful development as exemplified by the proposed PS 8 annex. The fact that the building will, in fact, obliterate my current views of Poplar Street in the foreground and the Manhattan Bridge tower in the background doesn’t bother me whit, as I appreciate the need for expanding the school in light of the growth of the neighborhood. The DSP, however, does not pass my litmus test for all the reasons I’ve laid out.
BTW Da, I feel compelled to ask you a question. Given all your posts that betray a disappointment with your own public school experience, why are you so quick to put your faith in the same system that let you down? Do you truly believe that the DOE has advanced its priorities any more today than when you were a child?
Da, since your multiple posts are as hard to keep up with as your refutations (astroturf, anyone?), I apologize for not noticing your ignorance of the havoc that Hurricane Donna caused in lower Manhattan and resulted in South Street being under three feet of water. Yeah, sure, the area survived, but I’ll ask the question again in another way. How willing are you to pile up sandbags and man a sump pump to guarantee that your child can go to school? As much as you’d like to frame my argument in end-of-days language, go to the NOAC website and educate yourself as to my claims. They don’t talk about possibilities, just probabilities.
Last point first if I may. Scientists are looking at evidence that the NYC area suffered a tsunami over 2 thousand years ago either from an underwater land slide off the coast of Spain or an asteroid hit in the Atlantic.
Run for your lives! It’s not a question of if it will happen again, it’s a question of when.
By that I mean I refuse to live my life in fear or run for the hills just cause we sometimes have some bad thunderstorms. You live by the water you have bad weather that’s a given, so what, we should all leave? Sure I’ll pile up sandbags if it comes to that. Some people choose to do that, I won’t
I post less and write fewer words than you and I post as me and you know me. I write what I believe and nobody is paying me.
And I prefer not to get into spitting matches. If you actually read my posts you know I prefer to stay positive and speak about issues and ideas. But this hired gun has gotten so nasty in an effort to shut me up I felt had to respond. that’s my story.
Your question about the ill famed DOE is just rhetorical. Your own child is in public school. We need quality public education and so we fight for public education. It is a constant struggle, a tug of war for resources. So I support public education and the gifted, idealistic, hardworking and underpaid professionals who try and provide this vital function for our community.
And while you would “argue that most of the opposition to this proposal comes from outside of Dumbo,” you would be wrong. Don’t start throwing your phony baloney petitions around; who is most active in pushing this issue? Who has hired the “consultants” who have testified that they have been hired in public? The DNA and 70 Washington St. and other big money interests in dumbo and in the Heights. Sure the developer has thrown money around but so has the opposition. And now that I know I’m gonna make them bill as many hours as I can to drain the wallet of the client(s).
DA, thanks for you advocacy. You are to be commended for standing up for what you believe in.
I was having dinner in DUMBO Saturday night and asked the owner if he supported Dock Street. He laughed, “Are you against it?”
He explained that he supports the project because of the planned public parking garage. Many of his patrons drive to his store and parking is tough. His wife is a public school teacher so he understands the need for good schools.
I encourage folks to write Christine Quinn and ask her to get the school in writing.
Sincerely.
There’s already ample public parking lots all over DUMBO (on Front Street under the bridge, on Main Street near front, and each of the high rise buildings has basement parking that’s open to the public.) There’s also the underutilized lot right off Front Street near Foragers. Parking for businesses is a specious argument.
I sometimes use DUMBO public parking lots and have never seen them to capacity. We don’t need more parking lots.
Many, if not most of the businesses in DUMBO are beholden to Two Trees, since the developer is their landlord.
A significant number of speakers in favor of Dock St. DUMBO at the various hearings were business owners beholden to Two Trees due to sweetheart long term lease deals. Or, even more sinister, some business owners have anonymously said that Two Trees requested that they speak in favor of Dock St. and the business owner felt compelled to “support” the project since their livlihood depends on a good relationship with the landlord.
Unfortunately, not all of Two Trees tennents get sweetheart deals. Witness the League Treatment School, which Two Trees is kicking out of its location despite the school’s offer to pay market rent (the NYT wrote an article about this disgrace a few months ago). It shows how much Two Trees really cares about the education of children in DUMBO.
Dear Publius,
Since your arguments are in large part based on sinister alliances and backroom dirty deals, why don’t you come clean and tell us who you are and where you live? I appreciate some of your arguments and could give you more credence if you would be a little more forthright with us all.
Sincerely.
Carlo:
Frankly I don’t care if you think my arguments don’t have crediblity. I’m speaking to the vast majority of Brooklynites who are reasonable and care about this borough.
As I’ve told you many times before, let the truth and force of my arguments be what gets focused upon. However since you’re so curious about who I am, I’ll indulge you: I’m a 4th generation Brooklynite, I live in Brooklyn Heights. I’ve lived in Brooklyn nearly all my life (brief absences for schooling), and love this place deeply.
I am involved in several Brooklyn-based charity groups, have run several businesses in Brooklyn, including one in Brooklyn Heights. I’m the product of NYC public schools (including Stuyvesant–just like DuhVoyager), and I intend to be a lifer.
But enough about me–it matters little in this debate and, frankly Carlo, your Rovian tactics are simply a minor annoying distraction in this debate. If you can’t win on the merits, your schoolyard attempts at villifying and discrediting those who disagree with you are sad.
Perhaps when this is over, the banjos of Virgina will call you home.
Thanks for the info Publius. You given me all the info I need.
Respectfully.
“He explained that he supports the project because of the planned public parking garage. Many of his patrons drive to his store and parking is tough.”
Again, the pro-side brings only their own selfish interests to the table.
Good idea to promote more driving. That’s what the world needs.
I don’t remember if davoyager specifically disparaged the anti-Dock crowd during his testimony at Borough Hall, but he posted this on 1/28/2009 on this blog, when explaining why there were more oppoents than supporters: “It wasn’t till much later when a rush of transplanted Manhattanites coming home from work who don’t have small children at home crowded out parents I personally know of who didn’t have time to wait around for all the whining to stop so they could make their case in support of the project.” Thank you, Google.
And now some comments on Duhvoyagers various commentaries above:
You assert that the opposition is all DNA and 70 Washington, and yet BHA, Cobble Hill, Fort Greene, Fulton Ferry and Vinegar Hill Associations are all opposed to the project in its present scale. By the way, there were 9 residents from Fulton Ferry who testified at Borough Hall in January, all opposed to the project. Only one could be said to be partially losing a view, but that view is of One Main and the Manhattan Bridge tower, not the Brooklyn Bridge. And only one of us is a recent Manhattan transplant. In this small neighborhood, it is true activism for the greater good, not personal gain.
You cite “hired consultants” by the opposition, but to my knowledge there is only one consultant, a zoning expert. And how does that compare to the $400,000 in lobbying fees shelled out by Two Trees in the past two years, plus the donations to Quinn and Katz? Really! You make this too easy for me.
You speak of the traffic issue working itself out (magically I suppose), and the closure of Dock Street during school hours. Are you forgetting the density that 323 apartments will bring to the area, their Fed Ex deliveries, their Fresh Direct, their furniture deliveries, their visitors, etc etc.
I accept their word that Carlo, Duhvoyager and Publius are not paid shills, and would like those types of allegations to cease from what could be civil discourse on this and other blogs about DSD. In statistics, we sometimes toss aside the highs and lows, or the ends of the spectrum, to get a truer picture. I submit that the same applies here; that, tossing aside the sometimes over-the-top missives from all 3 posters named here, the anti-Dock voices remaining have better arguments than the proponents remaining.
This thread is getting BORING, STUPID AND BORING.
The following things WILL happen and you are all powerless:
A 30 story mixed use tower will be built.
The magnificent vista of the bridge will not be altered because it was already altered WHEN THEY BUILT THE F—-KING BQE.
There will be no school.
DUMBO will grow like SOHO and become just as annoying.
Unless the adjacent NYCHA houses are demolished, crime will continue to be rampant as the “residents” of these “homes” will continue to prey upon the “residents” of that “neighborhood”.
Stop commenting now. Go out of the house. Have a nice meal. Have some sex. GET OVER IT.
Thank you fulton ferry res for finding that reference. That is what I said and I stand behind it. However as you can see it is a far cry from what I was being accused of saying and where I was being accused of saying it by someone who claimed his jaw hit the floor.
As for the traffic, it will work out because the DOT and the DOE and other city agencies will work it out. That’s what they do for a living.
The truth is there were several paid consultants who spoke again st this project including at least one lawyer. I think he said he was a forth generation Brooklynite. I’m sure there is a record somewhere that can back me up.
On a personal note I congratulate you on your activism, the city needs members of the community to take an interest in various issues but I don’t appreciate the name calling.
As for my other name calling invective throwing friend the Pub bully: I would submit that as long as you hide in the shadows I don’t see any reason to believe anything you say. You took it upon yourself to out me and proceeded to sneer at my appearance. And the “force of your arguments” consists largely of insults and lies. I do however believe you were telling the truth when you wrote the following “I’m being paid by the spare change left behind in the seat cushions at Jed’s lobbyist’s office. When you get paid north of $180,000 during the past two years to lobby the CB, CPC, and City Council, sometimes all of it can’t fit into one’s pockets and some gold coins fall behind the couch.
I also get some left over loose change that falls behind the seat cushions at the offices of Councilwomen Quinn and Katz. This is from the money Two Trees has paid through its “employees” to subvert political donation laws limits.”
A little more truth and a little less invective would be refreshing my friend.
DaVoyager-
You make big assumptions that the DOE and DOT will work things out. They don’t have to work things out in your favor, you do realize that. They could easily say that a School in the location would not work, what then? The building goes up and no school. What would be your position then? Have you considered this as a possibility? These are two agencies that, unless I am mistaken, have yet to weigh in on a School at Dock St.
The Where-
Well, obviously it isn’t boring enough for you to comment.
Oh Duh, I’ll miss your Doublespeak/misinformation and sad unsuccessful attempts to discredit your opponents.
Sorry to say, but I’m checking out on this discussion, if only because I no longer find the arguments of the DSP proponents worthy of a response. Da, your own words are digging your grave…Carlo, you’re already lying in yours. As for The Where, I can only say WTF? I won’t speak to the issue of whether any of the voices on either side of this argument are paid for their advocacy, as I can only speak from my own heart. I’ve attempted to advance issues that I deemed worthy of thoughtful discussion, and was met with a barrage of ridicule and spurious refutations. I’d love to live in the same “it will be great” bubble as the DSP advocates, but as a native born Brooklynite, I’ve witnessed too many broken promises in this borough at the hands of elected and un-elected officials to trust that this will proposal will rise above the disappointments of the past.
Da, Carlo, I consider our bantering to be a great example of the kind of rights that set our country apart from the rest of the world. In that spirit of respect, I hope you’ll let me buy you both a celebratory drink regardless of who prevails on this issue.
See you round the playground my friend. Let’s hope the good people at the SCA do a good job with the anex and not cause the whole school to collapse in a heap.
And while at my age I don’t appreciate the “grave” reference, I’ll hold you to that drink.
Best wishes.
Nabeguy,
I appreciate your perspective and sincerely, no hard feelings. Second round’s on me.
Carlo
The DUMBO Neighborhood Association has released a fact matrix to cut through the doublespeak and shell game that’s permeated this debate.
It’s worth a look: http://tinyurl.com/crjj3f