You are truly scarry under your false intellectual argumentation, you look more like “light sect endoctrinment guru” to me, Please speak only for yourself not under a name of religion.

I’m secular but I truly respect moderate religious practices.

I know I said I wasn’t going to say anymore, but I really don’t want you to have the last word.

Where did I say that sex between any consenting adults, including relatives, should be criminalized? If people aren’t so grossed out by it and they don’t care about having screwed up children, then it really isn’t any of my business or yours (or the government’s).

I also never said that I was for separate but equal bathroom facilities. I use which ever one has the shorter line, and if you don’t like it, you can wait until I’m done. I do usually use the women’s, but that’s mostly because they generally aren’t equal- men pee on the seat, and the floor, etc. I’ve noticed a lot of newer places have gender neutral bathrooms now, which is better for everyone, except of course the insecure and those who don’t think they can control themselves.

You also won’t win any arguments by redefining the terms of the discourse as you see fit. Fundamentalism means, “strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles” according to disctionary.com, not “having no argument,” as you seem to think.

People on the lunatic fringe of any religion, political party, etc. tend to make very bad spokespeople for their cause. I don’t know what you think you accomplished by telling the non believers on here what you think Islam means, but I’m willing to bet you didn’t win any converts.

BTW, fornication and adultery have always been common. King David had 300 wives and 700 concubines. They’re just talked about more often these days.

Finally, there is a biological predisposition against incest called the “incest taboo”. There isn’t against fornication. So this is an apples to oranges equivalence. But incest between consenting adults isn’t against the law in many jurisdictions. Rhode Island even repealed its incest law in 1989.

so you wouldn’t want to be rational. and you wouldn’t want to be consistent either.

you think separate space for men and women in a mosque is sexism. but you think it NOT sexism if secular culture provides separate space for men and women in many cases for similar reasons.

you think it is OK to ban incest. but you are NOT ok to ban fornication for the exact same reason.

and when I point it to you, you call me fundamentalist. Actually you are one who is fundamentalist as you have no solid argument to defend your position. and this is the definition of a fundamentalist. i don’t see any good coming out by arguing with irrational, illogical secular fundamentalists like you. so this will be my last post on this chain.

I am not saying what you can and can’t believe. Everyone is responsible for his own beliefs and deeds. I am just pointing out inconsistencies in the arguments of the people who are attacking Islam.

You asked AEB if he would “agree to ban this abomination” in reference to what you call “fornication.”

The great thing about America is you can think whatever you like, no matter how backwards and stupid your “ideas” are. The problem I have with you is now you’re talking about banning things for people who don’t believe what you do. If you think we’re going to put up with that here, you’re wrong.

So have fun worrying if sitting to close to a woman on the bus is going to lead to Europeans $%&#ing goats. I have better things to worry about that arguing with scary fundamentalists on the internet.

How do you no harm is done? The harm may not be immediate and to immediate people who do it, but harm is there. single mothers, STDs, broken family etc are some of the well known consequences of fornication and adulterous life style.

If fact Muhammad once said that a time will come when fornication and adultery will become very common, then people will be afflicted with such diseases that their forefather had known about it.

This is one of the miracle of prophet. Isn’t it a fact that in our time adultery and fornication have become common. Isn’t it a fact that many STD like HIV and AIDS have become common as a consequence of such a lifestyle? How did prophet muhammed know about this? how could he prophesy accurately if he wasn’t the prophet of God?

also what if these same “guilt, shame, and loss of trust” can also be proven to be associated with fornication , so would you then change your mind and agree to ban this abomination?

Incest can and usually does cause harm, both in terms of genetic risk when birth is a result, and psychological harm, particularly when children and siblings are involved.

In such cases, the sequelae (to use a fancy word) are often profound and long-term guilt, shame, and loss of trust–not good things.

Answer your question? One more thing: you assume that sex is OK if it occurs within marriage and not if it doesn’t. But for many of the world’s people marriage is not relevant to sexual expression; that is, they don’t define their sexual lives in terms of it.

Firstly Islam doesn’t say sex is wrong. It is actually for sex. Islam actually teaches that God rewards husband and wife when they have sex, becuase they are fulfilling their natual need in the legitimate (God approved ) way.

Secondly the sexual freedom in the secular culture is not something to be celebrated and it is certainly no progress. It is actually wrong and one of the major causes of social meltdown. you just need to pay attention to whats going on around us.

initially secular culture approved of sex between consenting adults of opposite sex even if unmarried.

then it approved of sex between consenting adults of same sex.

then it is starting to approve marriage between same sex ( in several countries it already approved)

then it is discussing to approve sex between human and chimps/animals ( this already came up in some European parliaments for approval but got rejected). but it will come up again if history is any indication

then it will approve marriage between humans and animals

is this what you want the future to be?

There is no hope for irrationality. And secularism is irrational at it best. Muslim men are permitted in mosque and Muslim women permitted in a mosque. Both are “permitted” in their own separate spaces. If you can’t understand what “permitted” means then you need to go and study some English. Islam doesn’t teach that men or women can’t control their urges. Rather it says that they MUST control their urges when do get into such a situation. But the best policy is mankind shouldn’t get into situations where there is any possibility of seeing or doing wrong. This principle not only limited to men/women relationship. It actually applies in so many different cases like financial transactions, work, home etc etc. And you will find umpteen examples of this principle even in your secular culture if you pay attention.

In any case you couldn’t explain why there are separate spaces for female and men genders even in secular culture in many situations. It is actually based on very similar reasoning which is given in Islam’s holy books. Only thing is Muslim call this religion and secular people call it common sense. Islam is common sense and that’s why many people covert to Islam when they understand that what islam teaches is nothing but in accordance with human nature. no wonder Islam is fastest growing religion on in USA.

Since you are for fornication, this is suffice to tell you that this one of the major failings of the modern secular culture. Not just Islam, every major religion prohibits sexual relation outside marriage. Don’t you want to stop and think why? Just because two adults consent doesn’t make it right. It is evil and it is wicked. It is God’s right upon human beings to tell us what to do and what not to do. Consent by individuals can’t over rule what God has deemed wrong.

BTW , the secular culture is illogical and contradictory many times. Let me give you an extreme example just to illustrate my point. It says it is OK to indulge in fornication if two adults consent to it but it prohibits same thing if two consenting adult siblings indulge in it. This is called incest and it is prohibited in most secular countries. Can you explain why consent of two individual is OK in one case but not OK in another case?

However, progress has be–and is being–made.

When there’s a line for the women’s bathroom, I go in the men’s.

Being “permitted” to go somewhere but only through the back door so no one else has to look at you because of your gender is sexist. If you don’t get that, there’s no hope for you.

I would be insulted if I were a man by your insinuation that men can’t control themselves if they were to see a woman in a public place. Do you really think there’s @#$%ing in the rectory at the local church because women are “permitted” to sit in the same pews as men?

I also don’t know what the hell you mean by “fornication” but if you mean two consenting adults having sex with each other it sounds like a good time to me.

On what basis do you say that separation between men and women during prayer in a mosque is sexism? Why it can’t be what Islam says is the real reason. That’s to keep the heart of men and women clean. In Islam both men and women are commanded to keep their gaze low, don’t mingle with each other unless necessary ( inside a mosque or outside) etc. When men and women and men mingle freely in any society adultery and fornication gradually starts to take root. It is a fact which can’t be denied. So unless you think it is OK to fornicate and commit adultery you can’t possibly say Islam’s teaching on interaction between men and women is sexism.

In any case you can find example of such separation in secular culture as well. How do you explain different rest rooms for men and women in virtually all public places, different dorms for male an female students in universities, different living spaces for women and men in shelters ( i volunteer for a homeless shelter and i know why it is important to keep them separate) etc etc?

By Monday was quoting sexist passages from the Bible. Why bother unless he/she thinks the Bible is something more to me than a really, really boring book?

Ahmad,

I lead an entirely secular life. I was neither born nor raised Jewish, Christian, or “blind racist,” as you seem to think because I dare question a backwards, sexist tradition.

I’m sure there are some Churches/Temples/Mosques, etc. that don’t take everything literally and understand their holy books as a product of the times in which they were written (I seem to recall a Bible passage about how to treat your slaves). If everyone is included, welcomed, and treated equally at these places, I don’t have a problem with them or the people who go there.

I’m troubled by sexism. At least it’s openly stated in places of worship. In corporate America, it’s hidden. The glass ceiling has been cracked but not removed. Some still don’t even acknowledge it exists.

You’re damn right I wouldn’t. If men don’t want to see me, they can close their eyes.

So, how bout that Arsenic based life form? Think we’ll find Arciniophiles any time soon?

poop

1 Corinthians 14:34 : Various interpretations can be applied to this verse. In a literal translation, “silent” is the common term used to describe the Greek word verb “sigao”, however, the term has a very different meaning. Sigao is found 19 times throughout the Bible.

Sigao is not a word that can be appropriately translated one Greek word for one English word. “Silent” is just what has been chosen as the closest literal single word translation, but not necessarily a close translation at all. I don’t know what the best translation is, but I’m confident the intent of the verse is not being properly communicated.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Paul is talking to the disorderly Corinthian community. In the verses around this, he is discussing the use of prophecy in Church. Paul is trying to develop order in the community and more specifically in the church. There shouldn’t be a lot of random chatter when God’s word is being presented. He’s trying to establish a decorum of sorts.

1 Corinthians 11:13-15:

First, check this out: 1 Corinthians 11:3
“Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

What’s interesting about this is that this verse explains that “the head” in 1 Corinthians 11:13-15 is not referring to what’s above your neck. It’s a figurative reference to the head of the spiritual body.

I feel that I covered the basic reasoning for why you can’t take a few verses out of the English version of the Bible and apply it without understanding the context of the scripture around the verses in question. Much like when using Google Translate, you have to do some research to gain a full understanding of what is being stated.

Secondly, It’s easy to see where the Church stands on matters such as this one by going to a church and taking a look at the environment. In my Church (a more conservative non-denominational Church), we have Women leading the business of some aspects of the Church as well as Men. Women are free to be involved in the church as much as they feel compelled to do so. I haven’t been to a mosque, so I only know what I read, but it doesn’t look like the same kind of equality exists in Islam. Maybe Ahmad or ByMonday can share about the freedoms women have in Islam.